Episode #516: BlackRock’s Rick Rieder on The State of Markets & The US Debt Drawback – Meb Faber Analysis

Episode #516: BlackRock’s Rick Rieder on The State of Markets & The US Debt Drawback – Meb Faber Analysis

Visitor: Rick Rieder is BlackRock’s Chief Funding Officer of International Mounted Revenue, Head of the Basic Mounted Revenue enterprise, and Head of the International Allocation Funding Crew. Mr. Rieder is accountable for roughly $2.4 trillion in belongings.

Recorded: 12/19/2023  |  Run-Time: 49:41

Abstract:  In as we speak’s episode, Rick shares his tackle the macroeconomic panorama as we kick off a brand new yr. He touches on the arrange for each shares and bonds and why he’s targeted on discovering firms which have “rivers of quick money move.” We speak about a number of different subjects together with crypto, AI, Japan, the latest shift by the Fed, US debt ranges, and way more.

As we wind down, Rick touches on his entrance into the ETF area this yr with two fund launches.

Take heed to Rick’s first look on the podcast.

Feedback or recommendations? Excited by sponsoring an episode? E-mail us [email protected]

Hyperlinks from the Episode:

  • 1:30 – Welcome Rick again to the present
  • 2:36 – Reflecting on present market dynamics
  • 5:14 – The state of the bond market
  • 9:00 – Rick’s tackle inflation dynamics
  • 10:55 – Areas Rick likes as we speak
  • 15:58 – Alternatives in fixed-income as we speak
  • 22:01 – Rick touches on plenty of asset courses around the globe
  • 32:38 – Rick’s new ETFs
  • 36:01 – Reviewing sudden outcomes from the final yr
  • 42:06 – Rick’s most controversial viewpoints
  • 46:33 – Ideas on AI
  • Be taught extra about Rick: BlackRock, Twitter




Rick, welcome again to the present.


Thanks for having me on. Recognize it.


We had a lot enjoyable final time. You had been hanging out with an ETF man. And lo and behold, welcome to the get together.


Thanks, Meb. It was a celebration that appears to be getting increasingly well-attended. So, all the variety of folks which are within the area, excited in regards to the area, the variety of fashions that drive round ETFs. After which I feel, de facto, you bought to be on this area. We’ll proceed to develop. Mutual funds are nonetheless a very, actually good avenue. Increasingly folks need to be on this ETF area.


Oh, nice. I need to contact on these later and the methods inside them, however we final spoke a few yr in the past. Listeners, you will discover the present notice hyperlink to the episode. It was plenty of enjoyable. The world felt somewhat totally different. It was a nasty yr for markets final yr. This yr has been a bit totally different as they at all times are.

Give us somewhat excessive -level ideas. What’s the macro-environment now? I feel the, Rick, phrase cloud final yr would have been polyurethane. I don’t know what your phrase cloud this yr is however give us an outline of what you’re desirous about.


I feel the resilience of the U.S. financial system. That was why we use that polyurethane factor. And see, the resilience of the U.S. financial system is unbelievable. Everyone’s going to recession. I nonetheless don’t suppose we’re going into recession, though I feel we’re slowing, however I feel folks underestimate the extraordinary resiliency the US has, expertise, service financial system, et cetera. I’ve used this metaphor of the diving board.

You may’t make an enormous splash till the diving board is de facto excessive. In 150 years, we haven’t seen rates of interest again up this a lot and create a damaging… We’ve had larger rates of interest, however you’ve by no means seen the overall return of… So, for instance, the ten Yr Treasury exhibit this loss this rapidly. And so, I’d say you can’t generate actual returns or make an enormous splash till you carry the diving board larger and better.

After which you concentrate on monetary disaster after intervals of actual downturns. That’s when returns are higher. And as we speak, I feel we’re transferring extra to a traditional financial system. Subsequent yr, the Fed projection is fairly near this 1.5% actual GDP, 2.5% inflation. Fairly secure.

Life by no means goes to the straight line to stability, however my sense is, if that’s proper, you’re nonetheless getting to purchase mounted revenue yields at ranges which are unbelievable. You may lock in six, six and a half. Exit somewhat bit on the curve. You don’t need to go that far out, that means you possibly can generate actual return, significantly mounted revenue. And also you’ve seen within the final month and a half, rapidly, fairly spectacular equity-like returns.

And my sense is you’ll proceed to see spectacular equity-like returns with the power to construct revenue for what’s… after equities had such a terrific, terrific run, to enhance what you need in equities is… effectively, that’s a fairly phenomenal factor. And my sense is, a yr from now, individuals are saying, “Gosh, bear in mind, we may purchase these things at six, six and a half with out taking plenty of threat.”


Properly, it’s humorous you talked about that. When you had been to say the theme this yr, in my thoughts, outdoors of my world, I really feel just like the T-Payments and Chill this resurgence of getting yields for mounted revenue traders, significantly the on a regular basis you see in cash markets, simply that quantity of their head, 5% looks like a really behaviorally vital quantity. Now, as you talked about plenty of these lengthy bonds, I feel the drawdown on the 30-year was darn close to half.

And I really feel like if shares did that, everybody could be dropping their thoughts, going loopy, however bond traders are somewhat extra sober I feel. I don’t know, however this appeared like an occasion that felt very uncommon in markets. Why do you suppose traders typically, and possibly they didn’t, inform me your expertise, dealt with it so effectively? Is it they noticed the yield aspect of it versus the numerous losses on these lengthy bonds?


So, it relies upon who you discuss to. Three straight years, pre-November-ish. Three straight years are fairly devastating. Such as you mentioned, an extended bond, 30-year treasury. It was the Could 2020 30-year treasury is buying and selling at $47.5 value. Individuals don’t need to try this. Argentina has to have the treasury. Individuals don’t view U.S. treasuries like AAA, asset, finest asset on the earth, most secure asset on the earth, I ought to say. Buying and selling 47, that was fairly outstanding.

So, it relies upon who you had been, when it comes to the response operate to that, however such as you say, there was this sucking sound of individuals saying, “I don’t need to personal any of these things, get me into payments.” And the amount of cash sitting in cash markets, 7 trillion-ish, relying on the way you measure it, sitting in cash market funds, get me 5, 5 and a half, going into payments, and I’ll sleep at night time tax-efficient.

The factor that I feel is a part of… your starting query, that I feel, and I feel each time, I didn’t imply in all probability in your present as effectively, folks say, “What’s your favourite funding?” I’d say, “One-year business paper for… I don’t know, what number of months. One-year business paper.” You may get six at one level, six and a half nearly. Now, I feel that the Fed is chopping charges. When are they going to begin, March, or Could, or June?

I feel they’re beginning in Could, nevertheless it’s not. So, what occurs? 5 and a half is a fleeting quantity if they are surely going to chop charges aggressively. So, my argument is you don’t need to go that far out the… You don’t need to go to 30 years and take the volatility round it, significantly the 30 years at 4%. Not fascinating at 4% except you’re a life insurance coverage firm or pension that has to personal it.

However you possibly can go after the three or five-year a part of the curve, purchase plenty of issues like funding grade credit score company, mortgages, somewhat little bit of excessive yield, European excessive yield. And you may nonetheless construct somewhat little bit of a six, and possibly the six due to, if charges rally, the six can flip right into a 9, or 10 from a complete return perspective. So, sooner or later, you bought to leap off that diving board, however I’m doing it personally. I’m doing my funds. I feel it’s price locking a number of the sum.


So, we had been doing a little enjoyable stats. And these aren’t significantly actionable insights, however for me, it’s extra sentiment associated the place I used to be speaking on Twitter. And I mentioned, “So far as the lengthy pond, actually…” And it doesn’t appear like it’s going to occur now after this ferocious rally over the past month or so, however I mentioned, “The one time sequentially had been down three years in a row, and that is nominal, not actual however, was late ’70s, early ’80s.”

And clearly, the long run returns had been nice after that marking a barely totally different degree of rates of interest, however phenomenal returns since then. I feel we’re going to print a optimistic yr now, no less than it seems prefer it. We nonetheless obtained per week or two to go.


Have you learnt that due to charges had been excessive again then, and since for an extended dialogue in regards to the period, as a result of when you have got charges tremendous low, after which that’s your place to begin, even with charges being… that interval, this was worse from a complete return perspective, since you had been getting no coupon, and the place charges are ranging from. So, your value return was horrendous. So, the unhealthy is it wasn’t the… we’re double-digit rates of interest. From a return perspective, this was even worse.


You mentioned issues have been robust within the financial system, which they’ve. And I really feel like that’s been a little bit of an outdoor voice this previous yr. I feel the large matter that we imagined we had been speaking about final yr, actually everybody was speaking about, was this idea of inflation, which obtained actually scary for American traders which have the PTSD of many years previous. After which it appears to be mellowing out. Do you see this as one thing that’s principally behind us at this level?


So, I feel inflation is coming down. And I feel it’s going to preserve coming down. Pay attention, we went by way of a struggle that created an unbelievable dynamic round meals costs, vitality costs, on the bottom of the pandemic, that it created logistics, actual challenges round provide chain. And so, for those who go on to subsequent yr, we expect, by January, you’re going to see core PCE within the twos, and by the tip of the yr, inside two and a half.

There are a few issues which are the governor, or possibly some stickiness to inflation. One is wages are nonetheless excessive. Service-level inflation tends to pivot off of that, too. There’s reality round infrastructure climate-oriented spend, near-shoring, reshoring. So, there’s some stickiness to it. That being mentioned, folks say inflation goes to be excessive for years or, synthetic intelligence, we’re going to undergo a productiveness enhancement.

Individuals say, “Gosh, right here’s the place we’re going to be a yr or two years therefore.” AI, I simply learn a research that confirmed the quantity of affect on AI just a few months in the past. It could possibly be unbelievable, the variety of augmented enterprise capabilities, et cetera. So, my sense is a long-winded means of claiming, “I feel inflation is coming down.” I feel that offer chain shock is essentially completed, save another main occasion.

And so, I feel we’re going to get to extra normalized, however we venture inflation is coming down to 2 and a half. We ran for 20 years at below two, one and a half to 2. So, there’s some stickiness in there, however, by the way in which, the Fed can dwell with two and a half and so forth. And I’m fairly outspoken about it.


Good. Properly, all proper. So, we’re getting a presence in our stocking now. Cool. Let’s discuss somewhat bit about market outlook 2024. So, we flip the web page on 2023. Do you have got any favourite areas, sectors, geographies? What sort of investments look significantly fascinating?


So, the very first thing I’d say is you possibly can construct a six-and-a-half and lock it in for 3 to 5 years. And so, my favourite is in a hard and fast revenue, a few of these funding grade credit score company, mortgages, securitized belongings construct a six-and-a-half. They’ll construct that factor. You may nonetheless personal a excessive yield. We’re not going to have a default cycle. And by the way in which, U.S. Europe.

The U.S., for those who’re a greenback investor, they don’t get too technical due to what’s referred to as the cross-currency base, as a result of as a greenback investor, you get a profit from investing European belongings. You construct issues like European excessive yields. You get 10% funding grade in Europe. You get six and a half. By the way in which, we used to finance European funding credit score damaging yield. Take into consideration that. In 2021, 88% of the entrance finish of the yr was a damaging yield.

So, these belongings, I really like. Simply put them away. After which I feel the fairness market goes to do its factor. We had spectacular returns pushed by seven shares. And I feel for the subsequent couple of years, I’ll say, “Oh, gosh, I’m going to purchase 60-40. I’m going to take 60. I’m going to carry my equities.” There are plenty of sectors inside equities that the multiples are okay, vitality, healthcare, protection. They usually commerce at 14, 15 a number of, and had been much less, and free money move multiples which are actually, actually low.

So, the extent of nominal GDP remains to be fairly darn excessive. So, firms can generate 10% return on fairness. So, on common. You throw off 10% return on fairness, the a number of isn’t stifling. I don’t know. I feel equities will do eight, to 10, to 12. After which I’ll put six, six and a half in mounted revenue. Life is okay. It would by no means get there straight line. I’m sure of that. I’ve completed this too lengthy to comprehend it’s not going to be straight line to Nirvana. However I feel you possibly can have a fairly good go.


We’ve heard so many instances these folks speak about conventional portfolios, 60-40 being lifeless. And it did have a nasty yr in 2022, however that resets the chance set. When issues go down, normally, yields go up, valuations go down, issues look higher. That’s the way in which this works.

You talked about the Magnificent Seven after which equities doing okay. Do you need to transfer away from market cap weight? So, the market cap weight, clearly, having a fairly heavy tilt in that and weighing in these indices. And most traders are market cap weighted. Do folks need to begin to tilt away or lean away from the market cap to get these eight, 10, 12?


For the primary time in my profession, and/or my private funding historical past, I really like tech. I name it the quick rivers of money move. You need to be in these firms rising as a result of they put money into R&D. They promote future progress. And by the way in which, we’re nonetheless watching a few of these firms. It’s fairly unbelievable that in another enterprise remains to be producing 30% prime line income progress at this dimension. It’s unbelievable.

However for the primary time in, I don’t know, 15, 20 years, that I’d say there’s some valuations that make sense round these sectors we talked about. So, I’d say for a few of my private investing profession, and I’m doing a number of the funds, is I’m truly doing extra in equal weighting. My view has been, significantly for those who’re going to personal equities for 10 years, 20 years, I’ve mentioned personal the quick rivers of money move, personal the tech firms.

However for the primary time, I’ve shifted some into let’s do equal weight, let’s do extra equal weight, get into extra healthcare to seek out a few of these names we’ve talked about, even I do know airways, auto that beat up the multiples fairly good, even a number of the banks not too long ago. I don’t know. The multiples are okay.

And so, for the primary time shortly, going into ’24, I feel doing extra equal weight. Once more, I wouldn’t promote these. I nonetheless personal a bunch of those tech firms. If you concentrate on the quantity of CapEx spend on this nation, it’s going to go in it if AI goes to be what it’s. Chip manufacturing, GPU expenditure, et cetera. I wouldn’t get out. However anyway, transferring the needle a bit, I feel, makes a bunch of sense as we speak.


We talked in regards to the alternative set of hanging out in treasuries, which you get a pleasant yield that we haven’t in a very long time, however, I don’t know, of the chance set of a dozen different sort of bonds that cross your desk that you just spend time with while you’re up at 4:00, 4:30 within the morning… What time do you rise up, your quiet hour?


Oh, 3:45.


Oh, my goodness. Up at that quiet time. And listeners, there’s a enjoyable chat on the final one the place for those who’re making trades at that time, Rick is likely to be on the opposite aspect. So, inform us somewhat bit in regards to the world of mounted revenue as a result of one of many challenges I take into consideration is for those who obtained this good fats yield and treasuries or T-bills, are you getting paid to tackle the danger of company or rising market or all these different flavors? It’s like a Baskin-Robbins flavors of bonds when you will get this return and treasuries. So, do issues look good? Areas that don’t look good? Stroll us by way of it.


By the way in which, a part of the explanation I rise up so early, I used to be speaking about, I commerce in the course of the London time as a result of it’s the crossover between Asia and New York, U.S. And I simply name that the unchaperoned interval the place, London, they have an inclination to overreact to information. So, anyway, however away from that, so it’s a superb query. When you’re simply snug clipping 5… Life is nice. 5 is okay in our careers. And so, within the final 10 years, the common yield on Treasury payments was 0.83%.

5 is fairly good. By the way in which, for those who’re the U.S. authorities, it stinks as a result of we’ve obtained a debt drawback. We’ve obtained an excessive amount of debt on this nation. The federal government has an excessive amount of debt. We’re funding it now at 5 and a half. It’s an issue that individuals realized this… I feel coverage makers realized this two or three years therefore. However as an investor, it’s fairly good. As a person, it’s fairly good. However I feel folks underestimate… Let’s get out the curve somewhat bit.

Lock it in. And to your level, do we have to personal plenty of excessive yield? And so, one of many issues that’s distinctive about bonds as we speak is to get six, six and a half, six and a half now, it’s not that onerous. To get eight is difficult. I obtained to go down the credit score spectrum. I obtained to purchase some CCC excessive yield. I obtained to purchase some leverage loans. I obtained to get some EM. And we personal some EM. We personal some excessive yield. However boy, I like proudly owning it in a spot that’s respectful of their volatility.

And what if the financial system slows? And pay attention, I don’t suppose we’re on a recession however we’re going to gradual. You’re going to have some extra defaults. EM at all times wakes you up with a chunk of political information. Wow, I didn’t count on that. So, I feel, on the finish of the day, for those who’re snug with six, six and a half, life is nice. And so, we’re not going to go there. One of many issues that’s spectacular excessive yield, 72% of the financing and excessive yield occurred when the funds charge was below 1%.

These firms took benefit of it. They mentioned, “You recognize what? We’re going to get these charges.” Bear in mind, excessive yield was three and a half, 4. And so, the businesses turned their debt out. They don’t have a maturity wall. I discovered you can’t default for those who don’t have debt maturing.

However you could personal plenty of it. And I’d say in our portfolios as we speak, we’re actually snug proudly owning funding grade credit score. We’re actually snug proudly owning company mortgages. You should buy AAA CLOs, clip a very nice yield. So, I’d say high-yield EM to B-minus in a portfolio. It’s not a D, however you don’t have to personal as a lot of it.


We touched briefly on shares and Magnificent Seven. I’m wondering at what level this enticing yield turns into a vacuum-sucking sound? Behaviorally, it’s exhausting to give you issues just like the Fed mannequin the place yields compete with equities, however theoretically, I really feel like most individuals truly consider it. And in the event that they consider it, it is likely to be psychologically impactful on their conduct.

And I joke for a very long time, my Financial institution of America rewards, they might e-mail me to inform me that the yield went up from 0.5% to 0.07%. They usually had been very completely satisfied about it. I’m like, “Whoever despatched out that e-mail is like… you needed to be loopy.” However now, it’s truly 5.07, or no matter it’s. In your circles, do you chat with those who the flows are beginning to compete with mounted revenue?

As a result of for endlessly, all of the acronyms, ZIRP, NIRP, all these various things, the place mounted revenue was zero. So, it was lots simpler to do the comparability. However now that it’s at 5, six, seven, eight, to me, that begins to change into a really actual competing asset. Is that one thing you hear, or is it impacting conduct but?


Sure and no. So, it ought to be, however as we speak, folks have mentioned precisely what you mentioned. Individuals have mentioned, “I’m going to take a seat in money, clip 5, after which I’m going to personal equities.” And so, the technicals within the fairness market are possibly one of the best I’ve ever seen in my profession. So, take into consideration the numbers. There’s no IPO calendar. 20 billion, I feel, has come right here to this point, possibly 25 billion. There’s 800 billion of inventory buyback that’s occurred this yr.

That’s not folks’s 401k. That’s not I obtained revenue coming in. I put X quantity in equities. 800 billion inventory buyback, regular allocation that goes into equities. And there’s no provide. And by the way in which, you concentrate on the precise reverse of that. Treasury payments had been issuing 400 billion per week of treasury payments. So, the technicals within the fairness market are unbelievable.

So, I feel what occurs is folks sit in money, then they maintain their equities, and equities transfer larger as a result of I feel folks underappreciate the technicals are unbelievable. So, what I feel goes to occur now into 2024 is I feel you’ll see folks take cash out of cash market funds, put it into bonds, as a result of you possibly can clip and lock in a few of this yield. We’ve seen that final month or so. And I feel they’ll maintain their equities.

So, I don’t suppose there’s an enormous reallocation. Significantly, for those who suppose equities… say, the technicals are nice, they’ll throw off this 10% ROE. I simply suppose what occurs now’s folks say, “Gosh, I don’t need to miss the commerce.” By the way in which, it’s not loopy. When you get 100 foundation level rally and charges, we’ve obtained plenty of it not too long ago, you will get double-digit returns and secure, such as you mentioned, high quality belongings.

And so, why not try this? However I don’t suppose there’s a reallocation as a result of I simply don’t suppose individuals are flawed. Have a look at most methods. I feel the fairness market isn’t going… or they haven’t gone up that a lot. I have a look at their rivals. Persons are underweight equities. So, I don’t know. I feel the fairness market is ok. And technically [inaudible 00:19:56].


So, let’s bounce round somewhat bit. You appear fairly optimistic and content material on the normal spots, which I feel is nice. Let’s get somewhat bizarre. You had referenced Argentina earlier. They obtained lots occurring down there. There’s at all times a basket case of economic markets.

However as you look past the shores of conventional belongings, this could possibly be international belongings, however this may be actual belongings. So, we haven’t even actually talked about commodities, gold, actual property, Bitcoin, all that enjoyable stuff. Any common ideas of subject of the normal core portfolio that almost all U.S. traders take into consideration?


We’ll go around the globe. So, to start with, I feel Japan’s actually fascinating. For many of my profession, Japanese equities, why? For the primary time, you even have wage inflation. It’s actually taking place. And so, I feel Japan is an fascinating place to get fairness publicity. India’s clearly gotten an enormous quantity of consideration. The inventory market there has completed effectively. I truly don’t suppose many of the valuations in India are fascinating in any respect.

What we’re doing is doing extra mid-cap stuff since you obtained to seek out these firms which are huge caps. There aren’t that many. They usually commerce wealthy. However India is a spot that I feel goes to be fascinating going ahead. We take some pictures in elements of China which have actually come below strain. And we don’t personal that a lot, however there are some fascinating particular person title tales that I feel had been taken benefit of.

EM, I feel, in native, a number of the native charges, EMs chopping rates of interest. Numerous locations are. So, a few of Mexico, Brazil, I feel, are locations to take a shot at. And pay attention, all of this will get into the world of controversy, however I feel the crypto, and significantly a number of the Bitcoin, et cetera, has confirmed to be… there’s some sturdiness to it. There are extra folks within the area. And so, it’s one thing that I feel increasingly folks have change into receptive to, so.


All the time fascinated with issues that don’t die which are exhausting to kill. That appears, to me, to be enduring. Though, you should purchase gold bars. I discovered this previous week, you should purchase gold bars, not solely on Costco, however on Walmart’s web site as effectively, which Costco has introduced they bought 100 million of gold bars, which I discovered-


I didn’t know that.


… astonishing, however India and China are in all probability like, “Oh, please, that’s a drop within the bucket.” Japan is a very fascinating one, as a result of the quantity of those who I’ve heard related sentiments, “That is an fairness market that’s basically had no actual returns for 30-plus years.” However the quantity of below allocation statistics… We posted one on Twitter the opposite day.

We’ll add to the present notice hyperlinks about how far… It was in our Thought Farm Publication. It was 75 info from 2023 that had been fascinating. And one in all them was about how below allotted traders had been to Japan, however that is normally true of international typically, significantly rising markets.

However Japan isn’t some tiny financial system. It’s a top-three sort of financial system and market cap that the governance seemingly is altering. We’ve seen plenty of buybacks there, which isn’t one thing that traditionally they’ve completed a ton of. So, that’s going to be a enjoyable one to look at. I’ll be over there in a few month. So, I’ll give some boots on the bottom.


Agree. That’s fairly unbelievable. It’s one of the enticing… Properly, one factor I’ll say, it’s exhausting discovering plenty of nice firms that aren’t absolutely priced there. So, you bought to do plenty of digging. The banks are fascinating, these costs automation, and the automation firms are fascinating, however you positively need to do your work.

Aside from, fairly frankly, we purchased plenty of the index and simply subjects. We like subjects greater than the sport. So, I don’t know, however we expect it’s going to in all probability do okay from right here. A number of the [inaudible 00:23:27] are fascinating as effectively.


We’re excited as excited as a quant may be. I’m excited to cheer for the names that they spit out. So, we’ve talked about lots that you just appear fairly proud of… something the place you’re like, “Oh, man, this doesn’t look good. I don’t like this. Keep away. Put this coal in your stocking, this asset, this technique.” Is there something specifically that you just’re somewhat nervous about on belongings and varied investments?


So, the one factor that retains me up at night time is, I feel, the U.S. debt concern is an issue.


And the way does that ever come to a head, although? Everybody, I really feel like, frightened about this endlessly. Is that this one thing that simply doesn’t actually matter to what issues?


I feel that’s precisely proper. I feel what occurs is… So, in 2024, are folks going to lose sleep over it? No, however what occurs is there’s a cumulative impact as a result of if we don’t cope with it, then what occurs is, and I at all times say, policymakers usually don’t cope with issues till the shark is correct subsequent to the boat. And that is going to get proper subsequent to the boat. In January, it’s not going to get subsequent to the boat.

What occurs is that this cumulative impact, as a result of the Treasury points a lot of their debt on the entrance finish of the yield curve, a lot in payments, large quantities of payments. We used to concern them at zero to 1. Now, we’re issuing them at 5 and a half. So, what occurs is our debt burden and our debt service, which is much more necessary, simply retains rising and rising and rising.

After which a yr or two years therefore, the debt service goes to eclipse the spend on navy, and all of the discretionary spending on this nation goes to get used up by debt service navy, after which, clearly, entitlement, however obligatory spend. It’s an issue. Are we going to cope with it in 2024?

Most likely not, however, boy, they’re going to undergo… When you mentioned to me in 2024 they’re going to be… You’ve seen a few of this not too long ago, even in a superb market, failed auctions for treasuries, as a result of we’re issuing at a pop. In a given day, we’re issuing… What did we have now final Monday? 250 billion in a day. We’re doing 650 billion per week typically. On Monday, we’ll have a two-year possibility, a five-year possibility, to a 13-week treasury invoice, a 26-week treasury invoice.

And, wow, in between 11:30 and 1:00 within the afternoon, Jap Time, in an hour and a half, we’re going to cost 260 billion. We’re going to have, throughout 2024, folks aren’t going to point out up sooner or later for the seven-year notice. They’ll be like, “Oh, my God.” So, it’s one thing that retains taking place as a result of it’s too huge. And I don’t suppose individuals are going to cope with it. However mark my phrases, there can be bouts of volatility with it.

The opposite factor, clearly, geopolitics, you bought to actually suppose by way of the place your investments are given the geopolitics are unpredictable. After which, I’d say, then you definately obtained to control China when it comes to progress and affect, and the way that develops over the yr, however we’re positively not… Such as you had been saying, I really feel okay about issues, however I guess, December thirty first subsequent yr, we’ll be sitting like, “Wow, that was straightforward.”


Possibly the AI overlords will save us or simply flip us into pets by then anyway, so it’s not going to matter. I need to hear about your ETFs, man. That is thrilling. You’ve launched two now. The primary was, I consider, the versatile revenue ETF BINC, after which the overall return ETF BRTR. Give us somewhat overview.


So, the primary one is that this one financial institution that we’re working as a high-income ETF. So, we’re making an attempt to maintain it at about 7% yield. Just lately, we’ve dipped down at six and a half. To your feedback earlier, is it price stretching to get seven? I don’t suppose so. So, we’re going to let it run at about six and a half. The concept being diversify it, securitize belongings, elements of funding grade, European funding grade. Simply be tactical.

Anyway, the explanation why it’s grown, fairly frankly, lots sooner than I assumed, we’ve gotten an enormous quantity of good notes round it, media round it. And I feel it’s a headline as we speak. It’s simply being tactical, commerce six and a half with low volatility. And I feel we actually are 100% of the yield of the BB high-yield market, and we’re half the volatility.

So, it’s gotten plenty of consideration. I feel it’s going to develop fairly a bit. I’ll open them, I feel, at first of the yr as a result of folks increasingly need to get that yield with… And like I mentioned, there’s 68,000 securities in mounted revenue. It’s a tough market for those who’re not in it day and minute to minute. And so, we use plenty of analysis.


Properly, I feel that, to not interrupt you, however that’s such an necessary level. And we discuss to traders lots about this. We are saying, look, international inventory market, the U.S. inventory market, you’re speaking about hundreds of securities, and international, possibly 10,000 actually investable, and the non-public markets on, say, non-public fairness sort of investments.

There’s plenty of arguments that I feel are bunk and bogus within the non-public fairness world, that no volatility angle that Cliff talks lots about, and a bunch of others. However breadth, that means the variety of selections, to me, is the one they need to be speaking lots about the place there’s orders of magnitude, extra selections.

And the identical factor is true in your world the place mounted revenue… My God, tens of hundreds of potential selections on the market of each taste. Most of them, it’s not as straightforward as simply shopping for Google or IBM below E-Commerce account both. So, it’s much more advanced space.


So, you concentrate on, if folks say business actual property, oh, my god, I don’t suppose it’s business. Truly, you concentrate on locations like accommodations, and the dynamic round lodge financing. And by the way in which, due to the stress in some locations within the banking system, you get to finance a few of these companies with nice collateral, nice construction, nice covenants, cashflow sweeps, et cetera, nevertheless it’s fairly advanced except you’re in it, doing it.

And are you financing on the prime of the shares, backside of the shares? It’s actually advanced. So, anyway, however the fantastic thing about it’s you possibly can finance at enticing ranges. And so, it’s an enormous a part of mounted revenue. We do extra in our mutual funds, however some within the ETFs the place we will. However such as you say, it’s a very numerous set of belongings you do. So, that’s been one which we’re tremendous enthusiastic about.

And we simply launched BlackRock Complete Return, which is fairly much like what we run in mutual fund kind, a complete return fund, much like a core plus technique, or a core plus technique, the place folks say, “Gosh, I personal equities and I need to have that 40.” This will get me the 40, and has outperformed the AG nearly, I feel, yearly, nearly yearly, on all these straight years.

But it surely will get you a number of the extra return as a result of we will do issues, eradicate unhealthy elements of the index, one of many different secrets and techniques in mounted revenue. The extra you lever, the extra you placed on debt, the extra you’re within the index. That’s not the place you need to go. And there are some elements of the index that commerce too wealthy, like company debt or supranational debt. They commerce it like nothing. You should buy treasuries on the similar degree just about.

So, we’ve reduce that stuff out. We’ve reduce out elements of the yield curve that don’t make plenty of sense as we speak, like there on the lengthy finish. Why personal it? It would do greater than 5, sevens, tens. So, anyway, we’re enthusiastic about that, that individuals will use them, and are beginning to use it for… I can marry that to my fairness portfolio, create my 40, do it in a means that’s environment friendly, the place the folks use ETS for tax methods, et cetera.


So, let’s say, there’s some advisors listening to this name, and so they say, “Okay. I’m going to examine these tickers out,” how do they suppose when it comes to conversations? As a result of we’ve had some over time the place, with the way in which we thought traders might use these funds, possibly it didn’t transform the precise means they use them.

However is there a means you discuss to traders and say, “Hey, look, that is how we take into consideration positioning these funds in your portfolio, the core satellite tv for pc placements for AG, blah, blah, blah.” The place ought to traders which are doing a strategic allocation slot these in?


So, like the whole lot, that relies on how a lot you personal in fairness, how a lot you personal in actual property, what do you personal in non-public fairness, et cetera. So, the way in which I’d give it some thought, although, on these two funds… The revenue fund is one the place I say, “Gosh, I need to generate… I need to maintain plenty of revenue.” After which we don’t run as a lot period and far rate of interest sensitivity. So, we run a two-and-a-half-year, two-and-three-quarter-year period.

So, it’s not going to maneuver round as a lot as rates of interest, nevertheless it’s plenty of revenue, and it ought to do its job. And if charges rally, it’s going to do its job and throw off plenty of revenue. The full return one is way more of an AG. If I personal plenty of equities and plenty of beta, it’s obtained an extended period to it by three or 4 years longer period to it. It would transfer.

And if rates of interest go up, it’s not going to carry out as effectively, but when rates of interest drop, complete return offers you a very good… And significantly, if we’re in that normalized world the place financial system actually slows, you need that rate of interest sensitivity. You need that hooked up to your fairness portfolio. And so, that’s how folks say, “Gosh, maintain on, I need to personal some complete return,” much like the way in which folks owned it for 30 years when charges got here down.

So, now, as a result of there’s extra, you’ve obtained a Fed, that’s extra two-way. And for those who have a look at, gosh, they’ll reduce charges if the financial system slows, however they’ll depart it right here, it’s a fairly good hedge now, whereas for the final three years, and the way in which you opened the present, it’s prefer it wasn’t as a result of it boosts. Inflation moved up.

You bought harm on charges, and you bought harm on equities, however now it’s way more two-way. So, anyway, however they’re totally different. Relying on how a lot equities you have got, how a lot beta you have got, how a lot actual property, et cetera, I’d implement them in a different way primarily based on that.


Good. Simply purchase in each. I don’t know if in these methods, however I do know in a few of your others, you do some hedging. And I don’t know if it’s by way of shorting futures, or the way you guys swaps, or the way you guys do it. Are you doing that in these funds, too, or is it purely lengthy solely?


Not as a lot. So, these funds, the concept being they’re puzzle items for this revenue, the one financial institution that we talked about, you’re going to purchase that revenue. And it’ll have some volatility. It has lots much less volatility than anything, than the AG, than excessive yield, et cetera. What we do is we tactically transfer round. We’ll take some beta down. We’ll get it extra into top quality, nevertheless it’s going to do what it’s going to do.

Identical factor with complete return. We’ll transfer round tactically. In our mutual funds, I do plenty of hedging. I run this unconstrained fund referred to as SIO, Strategic Revenue Alternatives. I do plenty of hedging. I exploit fairness choices. I exploit the greenback. I exploit plenty of hedging to attempt to preserve… Fairly pleased with it.

I’ve completed greater than double the return of the AG at half the ball for an extended, very long time, however I’m utilizing plenty of hedging instruments. The concept of the ETF is it’s going to do what it’s going to do when you possibly can put it within the mannequin and assume that it’s going to have this, however it’s going to have extra volatility, extra honest than what we’re making an attempt to… what someone presumably was making an attempt to realize for that software.


Cool. Properly, listeners, examine these out. By the point we discuss to him subsequent yr, he’ll in all probability have 4 extra funds. So, we’ll preserve a watch out. And we’ll replace on the ETF panorama. Let’s bounce round with another concepts. Something on this previous yr actually stunned you, I feel, both within the macroeconomy or within the investing world the place you look again and shake your head somewhat bit and say, “Wow, that was bizarre,” or, “That wasn’t what I anticipated.”?


So, oh, gosh, I’m going to suppose it by way of. Clearly, I at all times take into consideration the issues which are most up-to-date. The shift within the Fed was unbelievable in two weeks, three weeks. And by the way in which, the info didn’t change that a lot, however rapidly, the Fed going from, “We obtained extra to do on inflation. We obtained extra…”

All proper. Now, we’re going to begin chopping… I’ve been fairly blown away by that, how briskly, as a result of normally, I used to be on the Feds Investor Advisory Committee for eight years, and so they’re very pragmatic about speaking, setting folks up for a transition. That was quick. Anyway, my guess is the markets suppose it’s sooner than it truly is. However anyway, that was shocking.

The lengthy finish of the yield curve because the financial system slowed, the unbelievable bid at 4% for lengthy bonds, I feel plenty of it’s pension and life insurance coverage which are much less delicate as a result of they’re matching a legal responsibility, however, wow, I don’t know why folks need to personal that asset. That’s been shocking.

I feel the applied sciences within the fairness market are unbelievable. The expertise efficiency has been wonderful. After which clearly, the inception, the expansion. I feel plenty of it, folks say, is AI. Undoubtedly, however, boy, I feel folks underestimate these companies throw off plenty of money. They usually reinvest in R&D. However the value efficiency after final yr, it fairly blows you away.


The rivers of money move. I can let you know, these tech corporations, you recognize what’s fascinating to me, has been, I feel, most American traders, we discuss lots about… At this level, the cycle should not as fascinated with international investments.

However we’ve began to see plenty of fascinating tech firms, tech shares within the rising market area, the place it’s combining a little bit of the basics but additionally the efficiency and momentum, which is de facto what hasn’t been there for a very long time. China has, I feel, actually struggled this yr, however different nations are doing fairly a bit higher.


Hey, man. Can I throw one different factor that I feel is fascinating?


Throw out a couple of. Throw out a dozen.


The opposite factor that’s been extraordinary, and I feel we name this okay, nevertheless it’s this dynamic round healthcare change and this GLP-1, the Eli Lilly’s and Novo Nordisk’s. This was a rare. And the affect it had on firms, you wouldn’t even suppose that it impacted it from kidney to coronary heart failure, et cetera. Fairly outstanding. And I feel for the subsequent couple of years, we’re going to see one thing across the means to deconstruct DNA.

You’re seeing some, hopefully, encouraging issues on most cancers and most cancers improvement, mind well being. I feel the subsequent couple of years could possibly be a fairly wonderful time limit. And also you spend plenty of time firms making an attempt to determine the place do you get into a few of these areas, however I feel that’s going to be…

Assuming you throw out issues that stunned you is we expect that expertise is actual, and we expect it’s… however the affect that it had, oh, one thing like McDonald’s inventory got here below strain as a result of folks had been frightened in regards to the GLP-1. Wow, did you suppose folks would eat much less Huge Macs? I suppose that’s a fairly wonderful factor. And I feel the subsequent couple of years, we’re going to see some fairly wild discoveries, I feel.


I reduce my tooth popping out of college. My first job was a biotech analysts. And this was all the thrill. And listeners, as huge because the web bubble was, there was equally as impactful biotech bubble as a result of the unique sequencing of the human genome which what number of over billions it prices to that time. And as we speak, I feel it’s 1,000 bucks now.

I simply despatched off my swab, I can’t say swab with out saying Schwab, my swab of my DNA to an organization to get sequenced. And I feel it was 500 bucks for the entire equipment and caboodle. I haven’t obtained it again but. So, who is aware of the place it’s going? However biotech, it feels prefer it, in a Gattaca sense, has actually turned the nook. You’re beginning to see plenty of these therapies.

I’m a quant man, so each inventory pitch I hear… One of many causes I’m a quant is all of them sound good to me. I used to go to the value-investing Congress. I listened to Buffett or all these hedge fund managers in each pitch, or each even time I learn Baron’s, I’ll go learn and take heed to you, guys, speak about finest investments subsequent yr. They usually all sound good to me However I’ve had a buddy, Steve Sjuggerud, shout out Steve, who… It was a yr and a half in the past.

He was speaking about these drug firms. And he’s speaking about Lilly and Novo. And he mentioned, “You need to be shopping for these shares.” And he mentioned, “I misplaced 50 kilos on this already.” And I simply nodded and I mentioned, “My discretionary inventory selecting days are lengthy behind me.”

However within the final yr, I want I had listened to him as a result of the affect they’re going to have, it may, theoretically, though everybody is aware of about it now, be understated if it actually has the impacts on the earth of, say, alcoholism, and different areas. I’m positive there can be some uncomfortable side effects, too.

Hopefully not. Fingers-crossed. But it surely’s thrilling. Now, the loopy half is for those who have a look at the biotech inventory charts, plenty of these biotech ETFs, you bought somewhat run within the final month, however they straight up have had zero returns since 2015, near, a few of them relies on the index you employ, however you’re occurring higher a part of nearly a decade. They actually peaked in ’21.


I’m going to let you know. We’re within the enterprise daily, engaged on huge analysis groups. It’s exhausting to select them up.


It’s going to be thrilling. Enjoyable instances. They’re all going to dwell to 100 or begin planning for it. All proper. So, let’s say after this, you’re going into a vacation get together, you’re sitting round consuming some eggnog or having a espresso together with your staff tomorrow, informal lunch, and also you make an announcement. And these are your friends.

So, 75% of them shake their head. They have a look at you. They usually’re like, “Rick doesn’t know what he’s speaking about.” It could possibly be a framework, it could possibly be a really particular, “I feel that is going to occur, blah, blah, blah. I feel that is one thing else,” what’s a perception you maintain that, say, 75% of your friends at this vacation get together, at this lunch, would shake their head and say, “I disagree with Rick. I feel he’s loopy.”?


So, the one which I preserve espousing, and I feel a few of them have been in your present, I don’t like economies going… I feel this concept of investing in equities, like there’s cycles, like that is the traditional. I don’t suppose there’s a traditional anymore. Individuals suppose I’m nuts about this. You’ve got a set in economists, 70% companies, 70% consumption oriented, and the variability on spending on healthcare and training. And it doesn’t actually change that a lot.

There’s been, I feel, it’s 13 quarters in 100 years that we’ve had damaging progress in companies throughout recessions. The common progress is 2% progress. I simply don’t purchase the entire, sure, there’s some variability, the financial system is slowing. I don’t agree with that. Individuals say, “You don’t have any respect for historical past.” I feel you need to have a wholesome disrespect for historical past. You don’t observe it as a result of others do and it impacts the technicals of the market.

However life is totally different. Regimes shift. Issues change. And I feel folks at all times search for the analogue that that is what occurred traditionally. And I feel most of that. I feel you need to understand it as a result of others observe it, however I don’t know. I feel for those who’re going to go to a celebration, and folks say, “Properly, take into consideration this is rather like that,” and I’m like, “Truly, I don’t suppose that means.”

I don’t know. I feel you at all times need to establish the regime and take into consideration the place we’re working [inaudible 00:41:49]. I feel, surveys. This trade loves surveys. What are folks feeling? Individuals all really feel the identical means on the similar time. If the markets happening, all people’s like, damaging on the financial system. They’re damaging on the whole lot. After which, by the way in which, I feel… What’s the story?

And the variety of surveys of the UK are predicting eight out of the final three recessions. They stink. And it’s like polling. It’s like election polling. It’s like they stink. I’m an enormous believer. Research the info. I need to hear firms. I need to know, we’re a number of the retailers not too long ago, who’s shopping for electronics, who’s shopping for… They’re shopping for attire. They’re shopping for electronics. Are they not doing as a lot in items and doing extra in companies?

I feel this trade spends means an excessive amount of time surveying different folks. And all people provides the identical reply. By the way in which, there’s a bunch of issues that I feel blow me away in regards to the consistency of that is accepted, a few of these issues. And I simply suppose issues are totally different. I don’t suppose you bought to guage. Man, I’ll throw one different factor you would possibly need to hear is that I consider in quant. I consider in elementary.

And I truly suppose that it’s the wedding of the 2 that basically is profitable. And I feel you simply obtained to do… On a elementary, you bought to do all of your work. And to know, like we simply talked about, why is healthcare totally different than it was 5 years in the past and why is… After which then use your quant to know who’s lengthy, who’s quick, as a result of, by the way in which, it received’t carry out if all people’s already lengthy.

And so, I do a bunch of making an attempt to determine that out. Marry the elemental and the quant, as a result of I simply don’t suppose both of them individually is sturdy when it comes to constant efficiency. And everybody’s on that opinion.


You hit a few issues that I feel are actually fascinating. Utilizing historical past as a information, however realizing it’s at all times totally different, I feel that’s fairly instructive and instrumental, actually, as a result of so many instances, I really feel like traders are ready as a result of they haven’t studied historical past.

However for those who maintain it as a Bible, the place it’s assured to appear like the previous, it turns into problematic when issues get even weirder, which they’re certain to do. COVID was fairly bizarre, however we’re at all times hitting issues which have by no means occurred earlier than. And that’s the exhausting and makes this enjoyable and difficult is making an attempt to resolve when these instances are literally actual, or it’s one thing that reverts.

Sentiment is hard, although. We glance plenty of the sentiment surveys. And I feel they’re fascinating from {a magazine} cowl standpoint, however so far as inserting investing selections on them, it’s normally extra apparent on reflection than it’s concurrent, however others really feel in a different way, however I discover it exhausting. I like speaking about it, however I discover it exhausting.


No, I completely agree. I feel you bought to deliver plenty of instruments to the battle daily.


As you look out into ’24, and this can be a little bit of an open-ended query so you possibly can take this a few alternative ways, if you concentrate on, you possibly can say what’s in your mind that you just’re excited or frightened about, however the different one is, as you look again, what content material, e book, thought influenced you most this yr?

And for those who obtained one, good, we will speak about it. When you don’t, I’ve one additionally that I’m going to deliver up both earlier than or after. However is there something you’re desirous about, something you’re streaming because the yr comes down, any good presents that counsel giving out?


I’m an enormous gadget geek. I’m maniacal about… I really like all the brand new cool stuff that’s out. By the way in which, a part of why I like tech is, pay attention, they’re {hardware} firms. There’s not that many fascinating new applied sciences. You return in time, and there was the iPhone, or the AirPod, or no matter it was, and never that many who I feel are that thrilling now.

I’ll say that… What did I… there was a… What was it? There was a Wharton research. It was with OpenAI. It was this collaboration that talked in regards to the affect of huge language fashions. God, what was it? Six months in the past. 9 months in the past. And I bear in mind studying that and considering that the story was 80% of job operate could be affected, and it was… I forgot the quantity, however one thing like it could eradicate 20% to 35%, 40% of the roles.

They helped me round whether or not it’s investing in a number of the chip firms who’re the winners in AI. And by the way in which, I don’t suppose it’s clear who these winner… And I feel that markets overreact on some versus others, however I don’t know. Whenever you rewrite 2023, it’s exhausting to say. And there have been some research I learn that basically blew me away about that this could possibly be the true deal.


The Actual Deal Holyfield. It’s humorous. And I talked to plenty of mates which have carried out AI extensively into their private or enterprise life. I’ve toyed with it lots. I performed round with it. We’ve recorded my voice and skilled podcast the place they may learn it, however from extra of a simply curiosity standpoint.

So, listeners, you probably have any main use instances or concepts that you just’re utilizing, shoot me an e-mail. I’m curious to listen to. I’ve some mates which have carried out extensively, and completely go nuts, swear by it. So, in 2024, it’s going to be on my to-do checklist. Are you implementing it on day by day foundation but, or discovered any nice use instances?


So, I feel the place the place we’re utilizing it probably the most is 2 locations. One, it’s serving to us soak up plenty of information. We use tons of programs to assist us soak up alerts and, globally, to take a look at indicators across the financial system, and pull from company outcomes round what homebuilders are saying in regards to the housing market.

So, that’s been actually, actually instructive for us. And that, I feel, will continue to grow. And I’d say we’re scratching the floor of what may be completed there. And the second is we do a ton with portfolio building.

And the power to run large simulations and simply run it again and again and use expertise broadly, synthetic and in any other case, that’s been actually, actually making an attempt to handle stress checks and handle what you’re doing. These are the large ones. By the way in which. In the present day, someone took one of many issues I wrote, and I suppose you possibly can do it in someone else, in different folks’s type, rewrite this.


Take Rick’s annual letter and put it within the type of Warren Buffett or Peter Lynch. That’s truly a good suggestion is to take one thing after which get 5 different well-known traders and write of their type. Possibly we’ll attempt it for Meb year-end letter. That’s an amazing thought.


By no means knew you are able to do that. However anyway, I feel we’re studying… completed extra for my enterprise, for our enterprise. I feel assimilating and speaking about… I don’t actually love surveys. I exploit them, however I actually love if we will get these firms come out with these retailers, there’s a lot data when it comes to what’s actually impacting consumption.

And if we will soak up that rapidly, and never simply rapidly, however comprehensively in order that we’re not pivoting off of noise, like someone mentioned one thing that was… If we will use it comprehensively, that’s fairly highly effective.


It’s going to be enjoyable to see what goes down actually within the startup investing world. It’s actually over a 3rd nevertheless it’s in all probability half of the startups I see are AI-flavored. And, after all, all of them are near pre-revenue additionally. A few of them are actually beginning to get some traction. Huge differentiator versus I feel plenty of the normal crypto area was you’re seeing infinite use instances and precise revenue-generating firms and merchandise fairly rapidly, which goes to be enjoyable to look at.


It’s like you need to take a step again in time. Have you learnt we dwell for… it’s just about mounted revenue? We lived on this damaging… Take into consideration damaging yields, how loopy that’s. And I’m identical to, you recognize what am I enthusiastic about in 2024? It’s like getting yield. For years, charges had been at zero. We had to purchase excessive yield at three and a half.

And also you knew it was silly. You knew that it was not silly for those who can outperform for a time period however you knew in the end that asset was not a fruitful asset. And also you simply needed to be tactical about getting out while you wished to get out. This can be a fairly cool… I’m fairly energized going to 2024. Getting this yield and making an attempt to lock it in, that… It’s a hard and fast revenue verse in that.


No, I hear you. That was a bizarre time trying again on it. We’ve seen plenty of loopy stuff up to now couple of many years. The damaging yielding sovereigns in making an attempt to how to consider doing the maths on one thing like a damaging yielding mortgage, simply…


How about lending cash to firms? And by the way in which, we’re going to lend you cash, and we’re going to pay you for the precise to do it. How is that doable? It’s insane. these European firms, they’re owned by the U.S. firms as effectively. They took the cash.

And now, these firms, they haven’t any debt wants. So, plenty of them are huge investor-grade firms. So, that’s a part of why it’s bizarre. You’re getting the yield for them. And the danger is down as a result of they took benefit of it. However lending cash is loopy. Paying them is loopy.


A part of what you had been saying earlier on the U.S. shopper being significantly robust, I feel, not a trivial quantity has to do with their wealth in actual property, but additionally the mortgages, the overwhelming majority, being locked in at low ranges. They’re not floating. And so, the charges going up doesn’t have an effect on them possibly the way in which that they might have been the previous.


No. Individuals underestimate it, the leverage within the system. Let’s say that the decrease revenue, the underside 10%, is hurting a bit as a result of they didn’t have the power or means to try this, however usually, inside housing, a ton of that was completed. And so, the general leverage is in fairly good place.


Rick, it’s been superior. The place do folks discover out in regards to the ETFs, what you’re as much as, what you’re writing about? The place’s one of the best place to go?


It’s a BlackRock web site. And we have now it on blackrock.com. And we have now a ton of data on it. After which, clearly, all the brand new ETFs. It’s only a ticker image, BINC and BRTR. Realizing what we have now on our web site is nice. I respect your point out and folks looking at them.


Rick, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us once more. We’ll need to do it once more subsequent yr.


That may be nice. Thanks for having me.